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pologal1979
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« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2009, 02:16:26 PM » |
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You have no idea what you are talking about. You do not understand how the program works. Let me break it down for you.
Net worth is an entitlement factor for pension. If a claimant has assets over $80K, this portion of entitlement will be scrutinized. The question being, can the claimant's net worth take care of their living expenses and medical expenses without the help of VA pension? This is done by a request for a VA Form 21-8049. The claimant lists all their living expenses as well as medical expenses. If it appears the claimant can use their net worth to sustain their standard of living without pension (this involves some math), then they are denied pension. However, the claimant may reapply after their net worth has been spent down some. For example if a person has $150K in liquid net worth and their living and medical expenses are minimal or the net worth could be used reasonably for years to pay for the expenses, then they dont need pension. this denial based on net worth is based on FACTS not opinions.
Again, pension is not meant to protect the claimant's existing assets. Now we are talking about people with assets of about $80K or above. If the assets can support the person, the dont need pension.
When a claimant "gets rid" of their assets by gifting it away or putting it in some trust (so then the VA has NO idea they even had the money) BEFORE they even apply for pension, they are technically hiding assets from VA, IMO. They want the pension = Greed in my eyes. They want to protect their assets. But, you have to understand, pension is meant for the poor. Pension is equivalent to SSA's SSI (Supplemental Security Income). Pension is a supplemental income program. It is NOT a retirement. It is NOT something the claimant is automatically entitled to.
The claimant has to show the NEED for this benefit. Meaning, their income is below the limit set by law and their net worth is not out of line.
If the claimant decides to get rid of their money before applying it is their choice. its unfortunate that this loophole exists, but it does. And financial planners and other snakes out there will tell these veterans that they can "move" their assets to protect them and then they will be entitled to pension (asset wise). those rats are actually out for the veteran's money. They can easily convince people that this is legally OK and they can convince the vet they are ENTITLED to pension, so they can take advantage of this loophole. However, it costs money to set up these trusts etc. duh. those financial planners/lawyers are out to make a buck.
But overall, this is a question of morals, not regulations.
OK so, your scenarios dont make sense.
#1. if the vet had no expenses, yes, his income is over the limit of about 19K (offhand) for a vet with no dependents with A/A. But, if he is entitled to A/A, and he is a resident of an ALF the ALF fees are deducted as expenses and would probably zero out income for VA purposes and give him max rate at that level. This has nothing to do with assets because he has none in your scenario. If this vet gave all his assets away before he applied, the VA would not have any way of knowing.
#2. makes no sense. again, if he is entitled to A/A he can deduct his ALF expenses. this has nothing to do with assets.
#3.your references are below. These are a few, but i dont want to bore anyone else who is reading this.
#4. I know there instances of shredding in the VA. Those people who were doing that are idiots. There are problems and bad eggs in EVERY organization and business. So whats your point? Why the low blow? We are having a discussion about morals. This says a lot about your character. In any sense, VA now has much stricter rules on shredding that everyone must follow to avoid lost claims.
Overall, it is my opinion that if a person gifts away money or hides it some way to become entitled to a benefit they dont really need, then that is greed. that is my opinion and i am sticking to it.
It is sad that there are people out there that will be quick to take advantage of a veteran or widow to make money off of them in order to move assets etc. But, i have to be realistic and accept stuff like this goes on. What can the VA do about this? Well, really congress would have to change some laws, but you know in reality, if a vet was required to submit all bank statements for a year prior to his date of claim to prove $$ was not given away to become entitled, or whatever, the claims process would be more drawn out and would NOT help the people who are actually entitled to this benefit and need it to survive. Its not a perfect system, but that there are why there are checks and balances. Income matching programs, medical expense verification audits, etc. help but it is what it is.
So, enough said on that.
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§ 3.263 Corpus of estate; net worth.
(a) General. The following rules are for application in determining the corpus of estate of a parent where dependency is a factor under §3.250, and the net worth of a veteran, surviving spouse, or child where pension is subject to Pub. L. 86–211 (73 Stat. 432) under §3.252(b). Only the estate of the parent, in claims based on dependency, or the estate of the veteran, surviving spouse, or child-claimant in claims for pension, will be considered. In the absence of contradictory information, the claimant's statement as to ownership and estimate of value will be accepted.
(b) Definition. Corpus of estate and net worth mean the market value, less mortgages or other encumbrances, of all real and personal property owned by the claimant except the claimant's dwelling (single-family unit) including a reasonable lot area, and personal effects suitable to and consistent with the claimant's reasonable mode of life.
(d) Evaluation. In determining whether some part of the claimant's estate should be consumed for his or her maintenance, consideration will be given to the amount of the claimant's income, together with the following factors: whether the property can be readily converted into cash at no substantial sacrifice; ability to dispose of property as limited by community property laws; life expectancy; number of dependents who meet the requirements of §3.250(b)(2); potential rate of depletion, including unusual medical expenses under the principles outlined in §3.262(l) for the claimant and his or her dependents.
§ 3.276 Certain transfers or waivers disregarded.
(b) Transfer of assets. For pension purposes, a gift of property made by an individual to a relative residing in the same household shall not be recognized as reducing the corpus of the grantor's estate. A sale of property to such a relative shall not be recognized as reducing the corpus of the seller's estate if the purchase price, or other consideration for the sale, is so low as to be tantamount to a gift. A gift of property to someone other than a relative residing in the grantor's household will not be recognized as reducing the corpus of the grantor's estate unless it is clear that the grantor has relinquished all rights of ownership, including the right of control of the property.
§ 3.263 Corpus of estate; net worth.
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(a) General. The following rules are for application in determining the corpus of estate of a parent where dependency is a factor under §3.250, and the net worth of a veteran, surviving spouse, or child where pension is subject to Pub. L. 86–211 (73 Stat. 432) under §3.252(b). Only the estate of the parent, in claims based on dependency, or the estate of the veteran, surviving spouse, or child-claimant in claims for pension, will be considered. In the absence of contradictory information, the claimant's statement as to ownership and estimate of value will be accepted.
(b) Definition. Corpus of estate and net worth mean the market value, less mortgages or other encumbrances, of all real and personal property owned by the claimant except the claimant's dwelling (single-family unit) including a reasonable lot area, and personal effects suitable to and consistent with the claimant's reasonable mode of life.
(c) Ownership. See §3.262(k).
(d) Evaluation. In determining whether some part of the claimant's estate should be consumed for his or her maintenance, consideration will be given to the amount of the claimant's income, together with the following factors: whether the property can be readily converted into cash at no substantial sacrifice; ability to dispose of property as limited by community property laws; life expectancy; number of dependents who meet the requirements of §3.250(b)(2); potential rate of depletion, including unusual medical expenses under the principles outlined in §3.262(l) for the claimant and his or her dependents.
§ 3.274 Relationship of net worth to pension entitlement.
(a) Veteran. Pension shall be denied or discontinued when the corpus of the estate of the veteran, and of the veteran's spouse, are such that under all the circumstances, including consideration of the annual income of the veteran, the veteran's spouse, and the veteran's children, it is reasonable that some part of the corpus of such estates be consumed for the veteran's maintenance.
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